Ep 66 Transcript: Speak Like a Leader: Communication Skills That Move the Needle With Dr. Laura Sicola

This transcript was auto-generated and may contain errors in spelling or inaccuracies in the spoken words.

Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Real Women Real Business podcast. I am your host, Shauna Lynn Simon. And today I am being joined by Dr. Laura Sicola And you are going to love this woman. Let me tell you, she is all about leadership, communication and influence. And she's a speaker. She's an author. She's hosted her own podcast as well. And she helps to transform executives into confident and inspiring leaders.

And she's actually got a linguistic background. So she comes from the academics of this, but she now applies it to corporate leadership. And she's trained and coach executives at Fortune 500 companies. And she has a TED Talk that you're going to want to check out, a TEDx Talk called Want to Sound Like a Leader? Start by Saying Your Name Right. That has nearly 7 million views. And we're going to dig into that in a little bit as well to find out exactly what that's all about. So Dr. Laura, welcome. Thank you so much, Shauna Lynn. It's great to be here.

I can't wait to dive into some of this stuff because we talked a little bit pre-recording today about ⁓ our audience here and they're what I affectionately call our accidental CEOs who follow more passion than plan. And one of the things that we often find our accidental CEOs are struggling with is sort of this imposter syndrome. And I think a lot of that just comes with not being able to express themselves properly. They started off with this great passion, like I have this amazing thing.

that is going to benefit so many people, but then they lack with the actual communication of it. tell us a little bit about some of the things that you work on with leaders in helping them with their communication skills. What do you find are some of the biggest things that people are struggling with when it comes to communication? It's interesting that you mentioned that the audience, everybody out there, they're accidental CEOs because for the last 17 years or so, I've referred to myself as an accidental entrepreneur and a recovering academic.

Love that. We all have our space of, we intended to go in this direction. That's why I did the PhD. I wanted to be the professor, had all that kind of stuff. And then you get there and you go, I'm not happy here. This is not what I want. This is not what I thought it was going to be. And then you discover this other thing over here and you go, I don't know what it is, but that sounds like fun. And I get to do all the things that I want to do, or at least we think we do. And then we go into business for ourselves and we realized we had to 75 billion other things we don't know anything about in order to do the one thing that we really want to be doing. So it's this.

Very convoluted system. So just have to say, sorry, I didn't interrupt you for a moment because clearly language is your thing because the way that you just so succinctly summed up what's inside all of our heads right now was absolutely brilliant. In a couple of sentences, I can just imagine everyone's just nodding along like, yeah, no, that's exactly what I'm dealing with. So well I'm right there with you. I'm not projecting, I'm not speculating or whatever.

I'm tuning into this podcast too because you are me. I'm right here with you. So I'm glad to be able to contribute to a bunch of like-minded women who are gonna be equally successful. And I'm super excited for that. So anything that I can contribute to the sisterhood, I'm so excited for that opportunity. We definitely appreciate it. Sorry, I did not mean to interrupt you there. I'm a Jersey Italian. Please interrupt. It's okay. you are good. My skin is thick. Got it. Love to hear what your thoughts are. imposter syndrome.

Yes. I think part of the challenge is that accidental part. And this is something where if I were my own client, I would say, Laura, stop calling yourself an accidental entrepreneur because there's not an accident here. Word choice matters. Word choice nuances. I mean, if you're somebody who's a human thesaurus, you've got 75 synonyms for whatever, use them. And if you're not someone who has that natural litany of word choices for stuff,

Find it, go to Google Docs, go to Microsoft Word, go to whatever it is, chatGBT, and find other ways to phrase things because while there's kind of the self-deprecating humor in the phrase accidental this or that, no one wants to think of themselves as an accident and that is disempowering language. So it create, it entails, it includes the concept of I'm not supposed to be here. I wasn't meant to be here.

This isn't for me, I don't belong here. So those little word choices that we use, they influence our own impression on ourselves as well as on others. And whatever we believe about ourselves is what we are going to project to other people. I think one of the biggest ⁓ misguided questions that I often get is which is more important, what you say or how you say it?

Or people will assume the answer. Well, you it's not what you say, it's how you say it that matters. No, it's both. They are equally important because the words you choose is the foundation of your message, it's the foundation of your house. The how you say it is the rest of what you build on it. It's the delivery of that message. So they both have to be good. So if you start with self-deprecating, minimizing language,

then how do you deliver that in a way that builds you back up again? your words are showing what you're consciously thinking, but your delivery, your voice, your body language, your facial expressions, that tells the audience what you're unconsciously thinking, what you're truly feeling about yourself. So if you're kind of ha ha ha shrug shrug a little bit awkward, even though you're trying to use stronger words.

They're going to go, ⁓ I sense what she truly feels and believes about what she's saying. there. Yeah, she's not confident in her own words. Therefore, she lacks credibility. And we are aware of that disconnect. And then we feed off it and it that vicious cycle. So we got to get out of our own way. Start with choosing good words to talk about ourselves first.

And that's so interesting that you say that and you're absolutely right. And to be clear, I'm definitely not telling any of my clients to call themselves accidental CEOs to everyone else. The intention is that we're turning them into intentional and thriving CEOs, but they're starting from that accidental part when they come to me and they're feeling a little bit lost. But you're speaking my language because there's so much in terms of communication that relates.

to marketing. are at the end of the day as entrepreneurs, we are all selling ourselves. Yes, it's our services, our products, et cetera. But as that independent business owner starting out, especially you are selling yourself. And so what I often find with my clients is we'll get into, you I'm doing all the things, you know, that you've probably heard that I'm doing all the things when it comes to marketing and yet I'm still not getting any sales. And so my response is always it's about what you're saying, how you're saying and who you're saying it to.

And if you don't get all three of those right, it's not going to land. You could have the greatest messaging, but say it to all the wrong people and it's still not going to land. Or to your point, you could have all the right words. But if you can't deliver it in a way that's meaningful, in a way that's going to connect with your audience, it's not going to land. So you're speaking my language here. So you have the three C's of vocal executive presence. Tell me a little bit about what these three C's are.

Very simple, Shauna Lynn, it is to the ability to command the room, connect with the audience and close the deal. And what that means, if we break those down real quick, to command the room is from the minute you walk in, the minute you start, even before the first words come out, there's something about your presence that just compels people to sit up and take notice. And it's not a like Tony Robbins, televangelist, Uber extrovert, look at me, look at me, demand for attention.

It's the ability to command it. People are compelled to pay attention. So that's command the room. Number two, connect with the audience. Connecting with the audience means you can be as different from me as Adam and Eve, but somehow on the most important level, we've established a mutual understanding that you get me and I get you on whatever that level is, but that's where we're gonna stay connected for our conversation.

And then number three is close the deal. And closing the deal can, as in your questions context, be about active sales and recruiting, but it doesn't have to be. Really big picture, what closing the deal means is getting to yes, forming an agreement and moving the needle forward. I don't know about what your various listeners are selling in their businesses, but my primary clients are Fortune 500, Fortune 1000, like massive enterprise level companies.

We don't sell anything in one conversation. If we the deal in six months, that's like, whoa, slow down Turbo, you're getting So it's a slog and it's a long game and it's a, okay, one conversation after one conversation, how do I prep this person for three other offline conversations? They gotta back to me and it's each step, do you move forward? Let's close the deal, close the deal, close the deal. Okay, so I really like what you're saying here. So talking about the command part, especially,

⁓ I've definitely seen networking events, for example, someone will walk in and they're immediately hiding in the shadows and desperately searching for that person that they know in the room. And I will admit that I have a tendency to walk in the room assuming that I'm going to know someone there and I'm just going to kind of feel my way around and make some new friends and make some new connections. But that's something that comes naturally to me. I understand that that's not something that's natural to someone.

all the time. So what happens if someone walk into the room there, they tend to be that person who immediately wants to beeline it to the first person that they recognize. Like how do they command the room when they walk in? Are there little tips you've got for that? Number one, smile. You know, you don't have to walk around with a giant ear to your grin plastered on your face, just like you're talking to yourself. But the, no one wants to talk to someone who looks uncomfortable because they don't want to share that. So at least like neutralize.

the face, so to speak. Why are you there? What are you looking for? Maybe if you are looking for someone in the hopes that there's somebody that you know, smile with the anticipation that you're going to find a friendly face. But people like to talk to people who look happy. Maybe not so true, happy, but it's certainly nobody wants to talk to a miserable person. Right. So simple. Yes. And the nice thing, frankly, is that

Let's let some people off the hook. For those who are like, cannot introduce myself to another stranger. I just can't do it. Don't make me, don't make me. Half the people in that room feel like you do. They're all sitting there waiting to be rescued, waiting for someone else to come up and initiate the conversation with them. And so if you see somebody else standing by themselves, kind of looking around and telling me the truth,

walk into any room, stand there for 10 seconds and just scan the room. You will see at least four people in the first 10 seconds who are all standing there awkwardly. They're probably looking at their phones to try to look busy, but it's them hiding the fact that like there's no Facebook updates left that they care about. There's no Instagram thing that's that important right now. They're just trying to look busy instead of awkward. So if you introduce yourselves to them first, if they were...

some sort of cartoon character, the word bubble over their head would be, thank you. You just saved them and you just made a friend for life. So it's just let yourself off the hook. Imagine you were them. So true. And it's even amazing, know, just even that your simple tip about smiling, you know, we've learned over the years, smiling really is contagious. If you smile to a stranger on the street, they are most likely going to smile back at you. And it actually does release some of the endorphins in their body and actually makes them.

naturally more happy. So imagine, know, smiling at someone in an event like this, you don't even have to say something. Sometimes that smile can encourage them to wave or say hello. And now all of sudden, look at that, conversation's been started. So simply, you didn't even have to say a word. Yes. Here's another tip for those awkward kind of spaces where you don't know anybody. Look around at people's shoes. Because people love their shoes. Some people don't care, but the people who love their shoes, love their shoes. Man or woman.

And if you see someone who's got a snazzy pair of shoes on, sometimes guys with their socks, you if they've got the slightly shorter jeans they'll wear or whatever pants they'll wear, some really like loud socks or guys in their bow ties. That's also a kind of a weird thing that the, but like it's a creative quirky thing. Like they're proud of being 25 or 40 year old bow tie wearers, quirky glasses, some sort of accessory, snazzy handbag. People love their accessories. And I have had,

amazing conversations where somebody, they may even already be engaged in a conversation with somebody else, but I'll walk up to them, just like touch the elbow, just a little bit so that they stop to see who's, like where the contact came from. And I'll just say, sorry to interrupt, just had to tell you, love your shoes. Watch their face. Just explode with sunshine, a guy with his glasses, with his socks, with his, whatever it is. Cause you know they spent 20 minutes trying to pick out the right one and they selected that and they're thrilled.

that you noticed. Exactly. And it's so true. And who doesn't love getting a compliment ⁓ and feeling validated that they made a good choice on something, especially if it's something that's a bit of a statement piece. So that's such a great tip too. It's so easy. So easy. Love that. OK, so that's command. And then I guess that kind of is covering connect as well. That's an easy way to start with the connection. And then, of course, you want to go a little bit deeper and you try to figure out something that's more related to your work.

if you're in a networking marketing kind of space, what's relevant of a connection that you can make that has to do, I might like your socks, but if I'm an accountant, it's a nice personal bond. Now let's try to find a connection on a different level. But that's also, it's certainly a good place to start. Yeah, for sure. And then the last one was to close it. And so I know what you said about that as well. It's not necessarily...

closing a sale that day, that moment, but how are we moving the needle on something? And even if it's a matter of, I might meet someone at a networking event, for example, I work with women, I'm not working with men for the most part, not to say that I'm going to discriminate, but for the most part, they're not my audience. That said, it doesn't mean that connection is any less valuable to me. So I've now made a connection that could potentially lead to something in the future. even if I just get an Instagram follow or a...

business card or find that I might be able to connect them with someone that I know, you just never know what that connection is going to bring. So yes, I guess could look different for everyone in terms of what it is that looking for. And chances are, Shauna Lynn, those men that you talked to, they probably know women. Weird. That's novel idea. Hadn't thought of that. Right. Look at that. Value add already.

But it's so true that I mean, I think, you know, we've talked about this on the show previously about how we want to make meaningful connections. Not everything should be and really nothing should be looked at as transactional. If every relationship is looked at as transactional, they're not actually going to be authentic and genuine and you're not going to be able to build the business the way that you want to. And I think that probably goes as well for for leadership. So I know that you talk about communication in various forms. Leadership is something that you specialize in, though. And, you know, whether that's leading a Fortune 500 company

or simply like your first hire or even just your fifth hire. Like all of that can be challenging. And I will admit, I have a lot of conversations with my clients about the leadership role. And there's a lot of expectation often that they need to present in a certain way and be a certain way. so can, they're always, you know, should I be saying this? Should I not be saying this? Do you have any sort of, I know that we probably can't sum this up in like five minutes, but.

Any sort of quick tips as to how to effectively communicate when you've got that, I don't like using the term hierarchy, but where there's a bit of a level difference, whether it's an employee or a direct report or something like that, in terms of that communication style, how does that change when that dynamic has changed like that? It always depends on, number one, what's being communicated. Are you giving instructions? Are you?

giving constructive feedback of some sort. it ⁓ someone who's been with you forever or someone who hasn't? ⁓ Diplomacy is, or attacked, is a utterly crucial leadership skill. And people tend to fall to one extreme or the other on a continuum that I would label on the two sides as either ⁓

the nicey-nicey, I don't wanna hurt anybody's feelings side, and those are the people who prioritize relationships, and that's a beautiful intention to not wanna hurt anybody's feelings, not wanna ruffle feathers, keep everything smooth, because it's about the personal connection that matters, or those on the other side who are the verbal sledgehammer people who are going, it's not personal, I'm just being clear. I like to be unambiguous. I don't want there to be misunderstanding about something, so don't take it personally.

Meanwhile, there's a trail of dead bodies in their wake whose souls they've crushed in the process. how do you, the true diplomat and a leader should be a diplomat. It's not about, do I have to be nice or clear? It's about how do you find that perfect balance for that person knowing where they are on that continuum and the importance of whatever the topic is that you need to address.

How do you find the perfect balance between honoring the integrity of the relationship and honoring the integrity of the message? How do I get them to hear what I need them to hear in a way that they can hear both the content and the intent behind it? That's the key. And that's so important because you bring up a really good point there where, you know, a lot of times when you're trying to provide feedback,

as soon as someone even knows that you're about to provide feedback, they can already start getting a little bit anxious and defensive. how do you, you there was once upon a time there was the whole compliment sandwich, which I think we've moved past that in terms of, know, like, say something nice, then give the negative feedback and then say something nice again. And that doesn't necessarily work the same way. But I like what you're saying about, you know, balancing the being nice and being clear. So sometimes.

but in our attempt to be nice, we're dancing around the issue and not actually clarifying what it is that we're expecting of them. And things are unclear. And at the same time in our efforts to be clear and concise, it can come down, as you said, like a sledgehammer as opposed to landing nicely. So I think even just going into it with those two things in mind. Yeah. And this goes back to our original conversation about what you say and how you say it. Because the concept of clarity versus ⁓ sensitivity, let's say, is about in...

initially is really about word choice, but then you still have to deliver it in a way that conveys certain things. I had an intern many years ago who was a graduate student at the university where I was teaching and she was from Libya. And in Arabic, it's much more indirect on certain things. There's a lot more flowery, a lot more buffering and stuff. And I remember having to give her some corrective feedback on something that she was writing for me. And

I asked her at one point how she needed, what kind of feedback she liked, or if there was some way could give her a better feedback that would be more comfortable for her. I mean, her English was amazing, but nevertheless, there's cultural and language differences. she thought about it for a second and she said, no, you're very clear. There was nothing, but she said, but I understand and I appreciate.

what you're saying and no, it's okay, it's very helpful. But I think things like the word choices that she used and the facial expressions and it's like, what are you giving me trash? I told you 14 times, why are you doing that? As opposed to, I think, I don't know if you've learned how to do this part yet, I may not have shown you this piece, let me show you this or just checking. how are you feeling today? Are you like, let me show you, I do care about you. Let's, okay, now we're gonna go here, not but.

Right, but is the worst word that you can use. Yes, the minute you use but is saying, yeah, yeah, yeah, I got through the nice stuff first. And however, it's just a fancy, but yes, correct. Correct. Nobody wants fancy butts. That's just fancy butts. No, but I like that though. And even just, know, like you said, kind of reading between the lines in terms of what is it that they actually need. And what I also picked up on that you were saying there that I think is really critical that I think falls more under communication than anything else. And I think people often miss it is the level of accountability.

Yes, the giving that benefit of the doubt of saying, you know, I may not have shown this to you correctly or because I know sometimes people are like, well, I showed them I showed them six different times. So but did you show them six different times the exact same way? So maybe it's a matter of, you know, the way that you're explaining it isn't as clear as you would like it to be. So approaching as you know, what I know I've explained this previously, but I'm not sure if I was explaining it in a way that that really made the most sense. So let me try it from a different approach.

So now you're taking some accountability. You're still accounting for the fact that they're making mistakes, but it's now a shared challenge that you're working to solve as opposed to they've done something wrong. And I think just that difference of how you were positioning that, I'm not sure if everyone in the audience was picking up on that, but I know I did because I think it's such a critical thing, which I'm sure probably comes so naturally to you. Well, it came very naturally to you. Very clear as far as saying, you know what, I'm going to, well, we'll...

point out that this is still not up to standard, but you know what? I'm gonna take the responsibility and say, I probably didn't explain it clearly enough. maybe it's about people have different learning modalities. Some people need you to tell them verbally. Some people need it written. They can hear it, but it just doesn't stick. goes in one ear, comes out the other. Some people need to have it demonstrated. Some people need you to talk them through it. They can watch it, but if it's something on the computer, just...

I need to share a screen and you tell me what to go click. If you just go see, do this, click, click, click, click, you click, like my eyes, it's like a cat watching a fly. I'm just going, what did I saw something, but don't ask me to replicate it. Cause I will never remember that. Talk me through it, make me do it. So what is someone's, my husband can build a giant, you know, anything. If you can watch a YouTube video, I don't know why, but if I thought of talk to him, no, try to write it out. Nope.

If you can watch a YouTube video, he should be wearing one of those t-shirts that says, I'm the YouTube king or something along those lines. It's amazing what he can do with a YouTube video. Well, the other thing that you mentioned though that I picked up on is also the check-in of is this making sense to you or do I still have you with me? Like doing those check-ins and because there are times where even someone will be like, uh-huh. And then you can see deer in headlights. Yes.

And here's an important point of distinction. And I'm so glad you use that example because ⁓ the two most useless questions we can ask when we are looking for that comprehension check-in is, do you understand? And do you have any questions? ⁓ okay. Worst questions to get valuable input. Why? Because the question, do you have any questions? They will say no when they mean yes. And the question, do you understand? They will say yes when they mean no.

Okay, so what should we be saying? Actually, you know what? Hold that thought for one moment because we are going to take a really quick break. And when we come back, Dr. Laura is going to answer that question for us. Perfect. Right back.

All right, welcome back to the Real Women Real Business podcast. Before the break, Dr. Laura was going to tell us how to actually make sure that someone legitimately is understanding what you are telling them instead of asking the typical question, do you understand? Okay, so let's pick this back up then. Yes, so we're going to avoid the yes or no questions of do you understand where they say yes, but mean no, and do you have any questions where they say no, but mean yes? And the question that we wanna ask instead is something along the lines of,

What questions do you have? Or what's still not clear? Or what do you need me to repeat? It's a what question. Because it's assuming that I've already asked you the yes or no question and the answer is yes, there is a problem. There is something that you're missing. There is something that is not fully clear yet. So let's just put that, you don't have to admit anything. I've not given you any benefit of the doubt or assumption that you might already be okay where you'd be

disappointing me or admitting imperfection or something, weakness to confess that, you can't say yes to that question. You gotta say, no, you don't fully understand. Remove all of that stigma. I would say, so I'm assuming there's something that I wasn't able to clearly, perfectly convey. So what can I help with? Yeah, and I so appreciate that.

And I think it's important, I'm replaying some different conversations I've had with my different team members. They all have different learning styles. They all have different communication styles. For example, ⁓ one asks a lot of questions. And sometimes that is misinterpreted by other team members as she's challenging things. Meanwhile, she's just trying to understand things. And she literally asks questions to understand. And once she understands, she can move on. But she has a very high fact finder. So I have Colby scores for all of my employees.

And she's a very high fact finder. And so she just can't move forward until she has a certain level of facts. And her mind feels like, OK, I've got enough that I need to move forward. So for her, I know when I'm speaking to her, like, all right, what are the questions? Because I know she's going to have questions. sometimes she probably doesn't word them as well as perhaps she could. I'm OK with it, but I can understand how it doesn't land the same way with others.

Because she can be very direct as well because and I think part of it she has so many questions in her head She just wants to like rapid fire them all out so that she gets all the answers that she wants right? so I like that you are making space for The questions that they have as opposed to saying do you have any questions? And I think where that also relates to is Oftentimes we can be like I couldn't have been more clear and the reality is that no matter how clear we think we are Someone's going to have questions and one of the things that you and I talked about a little bit

pre-interview that I think this is kind of a really good segue for is the question, so what do you do? Yes, the elevator pitch as it were. it is funny because I've coached leaders in tech and finance and pharmaceuticals and market, you name it. And that's the question that flattens everybody. They just go, and it's either just I've

regurgitated my entire website that I spent a long time memorizing and you lost people after like seconds, eight to 10 seconds in, or you just kind of go, I don't really like talking about myself. I'm just an accountant. I'm just this or that. You will not justify anything, right? So take that away. Don't minimize yourself. But remember, I think what's most important is that the...

elevator pitch, be careful of that word, it's not a sales pitch. What an elevator pitch really is, is an invitation to a longer conversation. It's 30 seconds worth of, and I use this in the most ⁓ innocuous sense possible, it's conversational bait. It just is, or if you're a foodie, it's an amuse-bouche. It's a little something to wet your vessel. It's a teaser, yes. And it makes people go, I'm curious to know more about that.

So how do you just, don't give everything that you do. What we wanna really focus on is the value. Most people make the mistake when you think about features and benefits, people give a list of features. I do this and I do this and I do this and I do this and I do this. Don't give me your task list. I don't even want my Why does it matter? Why does it matter? And why does it matter? Yes. What's the why? Who do you provide? What great value for? And...

The part that makes people really want to know more is why do you love it? What do you love about what you do? know, especially when people are in like accounting and whatever else I'll hear that most commonly. Well, but people think accounting is boring. So I don't want to tell them I'm accountant because then they're going to think I'm boring. No, they want to know that you love what you do because if you felt about accounting the way I feel about accounting, I'm definitely not hiring you. I want to hire the person who geeks out on spreadsheets. That's exactly you don't have to exactly.

What do you love about it? That's what I want to hire. And I like what you're saying about, you know, being a taster. I know when you and I were speaking earlier and talking about what you do, you were also very clear on here's what I don't do. And I know that can also be a part of an elevator pitch, sometimes of clarifying if there's if there's any chance it's going to be some misconceptions. So let's say, for example, you are a dog trainer, but you only specifically work with German shepherds. So maybe maybe you're going to clarify right at the start of it. Like, listen, or maybe it's.

maybe it's a specific type of training that you deal with. So say like, listen, if you're just looking at it, learn how to take your dog for a walk. I'm not your person, but this is what I deal with instead. And obviously I'm not saying in quite as eloquently as probably someone should. it's very clear. I think that's the other thing that I find in elevator pitches is that sometimes we focus so much on trying to say things with all these beautiful flowery words to it and try to make ourselves sound very eloquent.

⁓ One of my coaches recently had great line and I love he likes to put things down to like three to six words And he said it's better to be clear than clever. Yes. Yes, that is so key. So your elevator pitch Yeah, similarly. So you're saying like yeah You want to make sure that you are explaining like a little bit of a taster of yeah This is what I do and this is why it's valuable for you and and why I get excited about it I like that but that all it's so easy

Yeah, and the idea is that you want people to be curious to know more. You don't want to open mouth, turn on fire hose and drown them in everything that you do. You want to get them curious and to tell you what more they want to know. So you, the three little words that you want them to say after your initial opener is tell me more, preferably about something specific. and the, you said something so important about the simplicity of the words that are chosen.

what we tend to do, this is the imposter syndrome kicking in and that inferiority complex kicking in again. So we'll try to sound smart. So we use as many big words and jargon, tech speak and whatever else. And the one thing that people learn from those elevator pitches is, boy, you sound really smart. I have no idea what you do. I don't know who would hire you and why, but you sound really smart. That is not what you want to get out of an elevator pitch. So ironically, and this is probably the most counterintuitive,

advice I'll be able to give today. But if you want people to think that you're smart, the best way to do that is to make them feel smart by making your message so simple, so easy to understand that they go, oh, got it. Okay. That's it. That's it. So, you know, I'll often start an elevator pitch for my, my own services is with just a question like, uh, Shauna Lynn, have you ever had one of those moments where you're talking and you suddenly think to yourself, that sounded better in my head every day.

And most people- And everyone can relate to that. Yeah. Like that is something that everyone can relate to. Yes. And then, so my response to that, because usually people respond just like you like, yes, every day, twice on Sundays. Yes. I fixed that. Three words. is so perfect. Three syllables. I fix that. Now people don't know exactly what that means. They don't know how or for whom or whatever, but they just know, okay, well, know I don't like it. There's an emotional reaction.

gut reaction that I have at the notion of when I have those moments. Can you make that go away? Okay, I'm kind of curious to know how, so tell me a little bit more. All right, now I'll go, but I'm not going into, have a PhD in cognitive linguistics and I do this and I'm an executive coach and I do trainings and I do these little, that'll come eventually. They just want to know, okay, wait, tell me how you do that anymore. It's so true. Cause I mean, like I, there is a ⁓ company locally that they have old school style signs up on lamp posts kind of thing.

and the sign is very clear. says, I fix noisy fans. It has a phone number. That is the most brilliant marketing piece I've ever seen. And I think this is, so I really want what you're saying about keeping those words clear and really kind of drilling down a little bit because I think what ends up happening especially is, especially the listeners that, not necessarily trained in the sales techniques. And so they start getting intimidated of course, when we're dealing with a particular sales type of call. So,

are there any sort of specific techniques that they could be using? So one of them is, I don't want to say dumb down the language, but like simplify the language to sound, and that'll actually help them sound even more confident in like a high-stakes sales call or something like that. If I'm understanding you correctly, you're actually saying in order to sound less like an imposter, use smaller words as opposed to bigger words. Yeah, because you don't want to sound like you're trying too hard. Right. You don't want to sound like you're overcompensating.

What are some other ways that they could feel a little bit more confident in those meetings? I think sometimes those high-stake meetings are when we kind of like lose all of the confidence that we might've built up before then. So we're talking about an active sales call or sales conversation at that point. Okay, it's an intentional. And actually, beyond the elevator pitch, we're now actually trying to sell someone. Okay, and this person is voluntarily engaged in this conversation with you because they're curious to see if you can help them.

with that very event. I don't think anyone's doing cold calling necessarily. This is somebody who's actually you haven't like cornered somebody at that networking event and written them hostage. it. I think one of the other places and as women in particular, but men struggle with this too, is when it comes time to make the ask for the money. Women hate to give a price for what they do. The biggest fear is, because the two biggest human fears

on the planet are the fear of ⁓ rejection and the fear of being not enough. And the idea of, or being unworthy, so to speak, and being not enough. when we give a price, we're saying, I believe this is my value. And if someone turns us down due to price or otherwise, what we internalize is I am unworthy or I'm not worthy of that. I'm not worth that.

And that rejection is something, well, let me just talk myself down out of it. Well, if can't do that, I can do it for this or, know, we could try that and you don't have to commit. Stop negotiating against yourself. The hardest thing in the world is just to state, here's the package, here's the price, and then stop talking. Let them sit there and think on it. Let them digest it and let them break the silence, which is the hardest thing in the world. Cause you feel like seconds are hours.

as they tick by. So there's a great acronym I heard not long ago and the acronym is WAIT, which stands for Why Am I Talking? I love that. That is amazing. It's actually funny because I had one of my coaching clients recently. We were in sort of a circumstance where I was giving her a bit of a quote for something. And while I was kind of figuring out the pricing, I was just silent figuring it out. And she's like, so you're okay with the fact that we're not talking right now while you're figuring out the price? I yeah.

And then I gave her the price and I just kind of stopped. And she's like, you just like, how did you do that? I was like, yeah, no. And it's so funny because it is something that I identified pretty early on that actually comes pretty naturally to me to like, here's the price. And I've always said, apologize for their budget, not your price. If that ever does come back, if they're like, oh, can you do better? Like, no, no. Like, you know, I'm never saying I'm sorry, but that's the price. I'm not sorry, that's the price.

No, I'm sorry to hear your budget won't allow us to work together. If anything changes, I would love the opportunity to revisit this. Yes, it's that simple and walk away. I think where a lot of people do struggle and this is a whole other conversation that we're not going to get into today, but it is that that fear of walking away from something you do have to be prepared to walk away when you put that number out there. Yes, but in my experience, and I love that you brought up, know, the pricing aspect of it and how uncomfortable women are, because in my experience I can tell you so many of my clients are like.

So I raised my price to what we said we were going to raise it to and I gave it to someone today and they paid it without even thinking about it. Like it amazes them. Yeah. So I heard from oh gosh, I can't remember who it was recently that I saw on a podcast, but he said if you're not hearing no, you're not asking for enough. I'm like, oh, there it is right there. Like yes, raising that price as I mean, don't not arbitrarily, of course, but

keep raising that price until you're hearing no, but I love what you are saying though about presenting the price of just say the price, stop talking. And the fact that that is a way of conveying confidence. I think it's so simple. And then you figure out other ways that, they, I mean, if you're way out of their range by multiple decimal places out, that's a different space. But if there are, there are always creative ways, not always, but there are frequently.

creative ways to work around something. they have, know, yours is 15,000 and they've got 10 as their budget. Okay, well what other value could they add to perhaps close that gap to still make it worth your while? and I mean, I frequently get asked to do pro bono or effectively pro bono, like speaking engagements for nonprofit organizations, kinds of things. And there, you know, I could talk, speak every day for free because there's that many people asking for it, but I gotta pay my mortgage.

So, know, but what can we do that you can add value? sometimes I actually have a, ⁓ what I call my alternative currency sheet. And it's like, here's six things that would add value to me that won't cost you money. And you need to pick three or four of them, depending on your agency. like they could give you like a booth, for example, or give you a special mention. give you honestly, it could have been when I was running my own podcast, have 10 people, I don't care who they are.

go and leave me a five-star rating on my podcast. And send me screenshots. Send me 10 screenshots that show me that you got 10. I don't care if it's your 17 year old son. I don't care if it's your neighbor. I don't care if it's- Still helps your algorithm. And there are those who are like, I can totally do that. And it helps the algorithm. And there are those who are like, oh, I don't, I mean, I don't know that I can like force 10 people. I'm like, A, you don't seem to understand what I'm asking you to do if you think it's that hard. But if you're not even willing to float the idea, Pat, like,

Somebody from a chamber of commerce asked me to speak. Chamber of commerce. I should understand business. I asked him for that. He almost swallowed his tongue. Like that was the scariest thing I'd ever asked him to do. And he was really balking. And I thought, you want me to spend a half a day driving out to you, give your people my best content to make your organization look good. And you're not willing to take five minutes to send an email to your employees just to say, who's got an iPhone? Can you leave a...

You're like, you know what? Thank you so much for chlorinating yourself out of my gene pool of potential organizations that I want to help. It's so true. Yeah. Because then they just, they're takers. They're not partners. They're not going to be long-term relationships. They're just going to suck the life out of you. They want and they don't give. And I don't play with those people. So you'd have to value yourself.

and I couldn't agree more. And you're absolutely right. I I get asked to speak constantly for, you know, trade associations and such. And those are things that, you know, I believe passionately in being able to support them. But at the end of the day, yeah, it's a non-zero amount of work for me to be able to give that talk. So I need something in return. But I love that you've come up with some creative ways to add value. And so for anyone who's listening, thinking about what is actually valuable for you and keep it in mind, we can't pay our bills with exposure.

But thank you, the exposure word. my gosh. It's like mooning somebody. There's your exposure. That's not going to help you either. Don't ask me to moon your audience. Exactly. But meaningful connections do matter. And so if you're opting for say 10 introductions as opposed to, ⁓ I'm going to post it on social media.

I will tell you, in being a host of a podcast, and you probably experienced the same thing, I get a lot of people who contact me who would like to be a guest, and we're booked out for months at this point, in terms of like, you we're recording your episode on a day where it's not gonna air for at least a month. Most recordings now are anywhere from six to eight weeks before they're airing, because we have so much demand for these guests, which is fantastic. It's a great position to be in.

My favorite, though, is when I see someone come through and they're like, well, I've got 20,000 Instagram followers. I'm like, oh, they sound like they'd be a great guest to have on. I take a look, not a single like or comment on any of their posts. So this is the other thing, too, is that if someone says to you they're going to give you quote unquote exposure by post on social media, that currency only has as much value as their social media following and how engaged their audience is. And I'm using that as one example. There are lots of ways that people can claim to give you exposure.

but make sure that it actually makes sense for you and that you're willing to do whatever that they're asking you to do at a reduced rate or whatever that looks like for you. I'm a huge fan of bartering though. I think that there is so much to be gained if you both have something that the other person can benefit from. So in your case, you've got the ability to be able to speak to their audience, to teach them something that they could use. And all he has to do is give you like 10 reviews on your podcast. mean, sounds pretty simple to me.

Yeah. And of course, he might not have been somebody who'd ever listened to a podcast in his life, so you may not understand that. But nevertheless, ask somebody, don't just reject it. Or thank you for not wasting more of my time by making it abundantly clear immediately that you're not there, or that you're not going to be the kind of partner I want to work with. But one other tip with that, if you do have your alternative currency sheet, your options, make sure that most of them are things that you are going to get in advance.

Very good point. I Because otherwise you go and you deliver your big thing and you say, okay, so now when are gonna make those introductions for me? And they go, oh yes, I will get right on that. Yeah. And they never come back. So it's like, all right, you need to give me, tell me who are the two people you're gonna introduce me to? Tell me, what are you gonna show me the, before we get out of the event, you're going to make a video for me right there on the spot, a little testimonial that I can put on my LinkedIn and...

on my website and you're gonna sign a release saying I can use it for marketing purposes, you're going to do these, but what can you get either before you're delivering or in the moment of delivery where you don't leave until they give it to you. So, and they don't get to leave until they give it to Don't let it all be IOUs where they will deliver eventually and there's no, what's the right word? There's no consequence if they don't follow through because they whatever they wanted.

And again, going back to being clear, like you are being very clear. I love that you have your currency sheet because this is saying these are the things that I will accept. And it's not to they can't offer something else that maybe isn't on your currency sheet, course. you've already, you've given them a jumping off point instead of just saying, well, what can you offer me? And they're like, I don't know. They don't know what they, they don't know what you're even looking for. So you've got that currency sheet, it's setting the expectations, it's clear, and you're communicating what the expectations are in terms of when you're going to get it. mean,

I think all of this, there's so much that can be gained from this. is again, not to say that you should be trading your services for anything but money, but there are times where these exceptions can be made. And this is a great way of being able to feel like there's mutual value there. So I love that. Thank you so much for sharing that. Of course. And we do need exposure at certain points and we do want to get in. How do you get in front of your ideal audience? If your ideal audience is amassed someplace and you can get some exposure, good. That's definitely a way that I get revenue.

it shouldn't be the only up compensation. I appreciate that extra clarification of that. Yes, there's nothing wrong with getting some exposure, but if you're hinging everything on that exposure, then you want to have a bit of a backup plan. And people will often come back. If you do that for them once, they want you to do it again. like there's one of the big four accounting firms, maybe consulting company and one of their employee resource groups, ethnic group X.

that has their monthly meetings. They ask if I would come in and talk to their group. That's great, because often that's a good entryway to people who are decision makers, the women's group, the veterans group, the whatever. Sure, I'll do that once. But then don't pass me along to the veterans group and the LGBT group and the women's group and ask me to keep coming back and doing more free stuff for small groups. No, you get one.

But again, I think also when you go back to setting the expectations, when they understand, if they just called you and said, hey, will you speak for free? You're like, yeah, I love speaking for free. They're going to pass your name around. Right. So the fact that you're setting some parameters and saying, OK, I've got to make sure that it's worthwhile for me as well. And there's nothing wrong with saying that. And think this is the other thing that women often get hung up on is that we're afraid to say that we're worth more. And this goes back to what you were saying earlier. It's not as comfortable for us. But the reality is so that we are worth more. And being clear.

taking some of that emotion out of it, being clear, being confident in how you're saying it, and then just letting it sit there and seeing how they come back. Thank you. And I do want to circle back because I also realized that we jumped into some topics and kind of ran full speed without all of it, which has been fantastic. But I really need to know because I purposely didn't even ask you this in our pre-interview about your TEDx talk.

Cause I want to know a little bit more about what this is about. So that nearly 7 million views. it's the name of it is want to sound like a leader. Start by saying your name. Right. So tell me about, okay. Like I think I say my name, right? I don't know. Introduce yourself. Let's What do mean by introduce myself? So pretend we're just meeting. hi, I'm Shauna Lynn I'm Shauna Lynn, Lynn Simon. Got it. So where most, most of us, or false have a hard time remembering names. definitely true. Yeah. I think everybody's nodding along right now.

And part of the reason that we're bad at remembering names is because of the way the other person introduces themselves to us. And they tend to, the most common bad habits that people have that make them less memorable to us is that number one, they say their name way too fast. And that's like our brains can't catch up with their ears.

in the right place. So slow it down. And a lot of people, don't even think about it because they've said it a billion times or they don't like their own names. Ladies, oh, please don't do the, but I don't like my name bit. So I want to rush past it. That says, I don't want you to know who I am. I don't like my own name. I don't like myself. Why would I want to do business with you? If that's what you exude from start own your name. I don't care what it is. Own your name. So number one, slow it down. Cause even if it's Ann Smith, it may be simple, but it's not predictable. Sure. So

slow it down, should feel slightly awkwardly slow to you. Number two, break it up. So, Shauna Lynn, you've got three parts to your name if you include your last name in it. So people need to hear it into the pieces. So we wanna put a little tiny pause in between each one. So Shauna Lynn Simon, or if you wanna connect Shauna Lynn as all one, connect Which is what I normally do more, Shauna Lynn Simon. before Simon, there we go. Especially if your name is not maybe as...

common or intuitive or may not be from the same language background as the people who are speaking, who you're speaking to regardless of who's native and what, totally not relevant. So they need to hear how many pieces are involved. And the third is the intonation. Most of us, you were very declarative in it. Some people, most people tend to ask it like a question when they're introducing themselves. Like, hi, I'm Laura Sacola. I think, well, when you figure it out, let me know and then I'll pay attention. But.

So what we wanna do really is have our first name go up. It's like saying, I'm not done yet. And our last name come down. Now I'm done. It's the vocal period at the end. So I'm Laura Sicola. Laura Sicola. Shauna Lynn Simon. own it there. And if you're only gonna use your first name, then allow it to be declarative with a period, not a question mark when they say it. So when you put those three things together, then people understand it and it sticks.

much better than if you go, Hi, I'm Laura Schola. One of my pet peeves, I will admit, is the inflection of the voice that leads you to believe that they're asking a question with anything that's being said. And it's something that, don't get me wrong, we're all guilty of it at some point.

but it is one of my pet peeves when it comes to the name because I have picked up on it myself as well. And I will often say to people, and part of it is because I do business coaching as well. I'm I'm sorry, would you like me to give you a moment to think about that and answer again? Are you asking me or telling me? Right, exactly. And one of the things that I liked when you and I met earlier, because I always ask before I have a guest on, I want to ensure that I'm saying your name correctly. And you gave me a fun way to be able to remember your last name. And that's a great tip as well.

I've seen so many people who have done it over the years. I had an employee at one time, his name was Man Beer. And he says, just think of man who likes beer. It was just such an easy way to remember his name. Doesn't mean it's spelled that way, but people are more likely to remember him because he gave them an association with it. So I love that you've done the same thing. And I think that's probably an important thing, especially if you do have one of those names that's a little bit more challenging to remember or pronounce. ⁓ For me, like I've.

I've been Simple Simon my entire life. mean, you know, it's, it's a Simple Simon or Simon Says are two things that people can always relate so they can at least remember my last name. I haven't come up with a great one for Shauna Lynn, but I'll keep thinking about that one for you. That's interesting. So those are called mnemonics, mnemonic devices, little memory triggers. And those are great. So that's why, you know, when you asked me how to pronounce my last name, said it's like, it's Sicola, like Pepsi Cola without the pep. I'm the pep. And then

gives people a little goofy smile, because yes, it's completely hokey, but it sticks. as long as you can make people smile with what you're saying and not go, ew, I don't want to think about that. Okay, we don't want negative associations. That's not helpful. But the mnemonics are great. And just to be clear on the previous, your last question about the TED talk, the whole TED talk is not about the name. TED talk is about everything else we've been talking about the three C's about what you say versus how you say it, about authenticity and how to be still yourself while still adapt.

your message for those various, you many different kinds of people that you're going to encounter. And yes, the name is a part of it, but that was just a fun hook for the title. Well, and we'll have to grab the link from you so I can make sure that that's included in the show notes. speaking of which, though, you also you cover the three C's in your book, is that right? And your book is it's called Speaking To Influence Mastering Your Leadership Voice. Yes.

Yes, is. And I'm very happy to share with everybody out there a free copy of the first two chapters that you can download, get a really quick deep dive into the fundamentals of everything we've been talking about today. And if you're interested afterwards, of course, you can always find the full book on Audible, on ⁓ paperback or Kindle Edition.

Perfect. Okay, so we'll make sure that the link for that is in the show notes as well. It's the first two chapters of her speaking influence mastering your leadership voice. I've got to say, Dr. Laura, this has been amazing. I have so enjoyed this conversation. I feel like you and I could talk for hours. there based on, know, some of the things we've talked, it covered a lot of different topics today. And I know, again, you this can be a bit of an intimidating conversation for some people who are just still learning some of these communication techniques. But if they take one thing away from today's conversation,

what would you say is a great place for them to start?

I think one of the most common pitfalls nowadays is we misuse the term and the concept of authenticity in a way that is self-limiting. We look at it as being this very black and white, well, this is me, that's not me, I gotta be me, I can't be you. Okay, but you're not just a monolithic, I'm awake or I'm asleep and I never change. I I have ⁓ an eight-year-old at home.

I don't talk to him the way I'm talking to you. My grandmother is 98. I don't talk to her the way that I'm talking to you right now. It's not that one of those styles is the real me and then one of them is the fake me or me faking it. They're all different sides of me. I just know that in this context, I'm gonna talk about stuff that I wouldn't talk to my eight year old about. And just my tone is a little different. My approach is a little bit different. It's just a different side of me.

So stop thinking about authenticity as being black or white. There are so many different people you can get through to. I have talked to college audiences. I have talked to inmates. I have talked to CEOs of Fortune 100 companies. It always is me, but I'm going to find a way to command, connect, and close with each of them in a way that allows us to somehow

relate to each other and find that common ground that allows communication to move forward. Love that. So I've been adding a little bit of fluidity to ourselves and we're not fixed. We're not fixed in stone. We can be adaptable. So I that is a perfect way to close things. So honestly, I can't thank you enough, Dr. Laura, for joining me today. This has been such a valuable conversation. Thank you so much for sharing all these insights with my audience. I enjoyed every last minute. Thank you for letting me go off on all my tangents and tell my stories and play with me in the fun parts.

I just loved every minute. Same. We love tandems around here. Trust me. Am I right, everyone? So listen, if what we're saying today is resonated with you, go and check out Dr. Laura in the show notes. She's got some great, great insights that she can share in her book, as well as that Ted Talk We'll make sure that the links for those are in the show notes, just like all of our resources are every week. And if what we're saying here is resonating with you, I do hope that you will continue to join us on this journey. Don't forget to subscribe and follow us on your favorite podcast platform. Leave us a review.

As Dr. Laura said, that is one of the greatest currencies you can give us. And of course, I hope that you'll continue to tune in next week and continue on this journey with us. Until next time, keep thriving.