Ep 105 Transcript: The Real Questions You Should Ask Before Hiring a Business Coach with Sonia Barney
This transcript was auto-generated and may contain errors in spelling or inaccuracies in the spoken words.
Shauna Lynn Simon (00:00.108)
Welcome to the Real Women Real Business Podcast where we believe you don't have to choose between doing what you love and building something truly successful. Each episode, we cut through the noise to show you exactly where your energy should go, how to eliminate what's keeping you stuck, and most importantly, how to tell the difference between what's actually making you money and what's just keeping you busy. Around here, we're all about helping you to work smarter, build stronger,
and dream bigger. You've already built something amazing, but if it feels like you're stuck in a cycle of back-to-back calls, half-finished launches, and late nights just trying to catch up, you're not alone. Most women start their businesses with passion and drive, but somewhere along the way, they start settling for good enough. They want more, but worry it will cost them too much. And let's be honest, we spend so much time thinking about how to help others.
we start feeling guilty for wanting to build real wealth or prioritize our own goals. That's exactly why I created the Real Women Real Business Mastery Program to help ambitious women like you stop settling for just enough and start building a business that's truly aligned, where passion, profits and progress work together because making more doesn't mean sacrificing more. It means building smarter with the right support and the right strategies.
If you're ready for sustainable success in a business you actually love running, book your free coaching assessment at aboutshaunalynn.com/coachme Let's explore what's possible together.
Shauna Lynn Simon (01:50.094)
Hello and welcome to the Real Women Real Business podcast. Today I'm being joined by Sonia Barney. She's the founder of Kaivari and Sonia Barney Designs and is an award winning interior designer with over 20 years in the industry and 10 plus years as a business owner herself. She created Kaivari to connect designers with the right coaches, the right resources and the right community so that they can grow sustainable businesses without getting overwhelmed by all the options that are out there. Now, full disclosure.
Sonia has been a client of mine and she's also learned from multiple other coaches over the years. So she brings a really grounded perspective on what makes coaching worth it and how to choose the right person when everyone seems to be promising the same results. So today we're gonna get real practical about coaching. We're gonna talk about how to know when you need it, how to choose the right coach in a sea of options and what to ask you can feel that you're clicking with them with confidence. So Sonia, welcome.
Sonia Barney (02:47.778)
Thank you for having me, Shauna Lynn I'm just glad to be back.
Shauna Lynn Simon (02:51.182)
I'm excited to have you on, especially because of course I've been a little bit on this journey of Kaivari with you. And I want to kind of like, let's for anyone who doesn't know who you are, maybe they didn't listen to the previous episode that we had you on the podcast. Let's just kind of go back to basics and tell us a little bit about your background, your interior design background and what kind of brought you to where you are today.
Sonia Barney (03:15.308)
Like you said, I've been in the industry for about 20 years, specialized in kitchen and bath. I've been doing my own business for the last 10 plus years in my basement. I've learned from other designers, everybody kind of starts out kind of figuring it out on their own in some corner of their house. It's just what we do. I'm not saying that there aren't other people who do it a faster, better way, but that's how I started my journey kind of.
in between drop-off and pick up of my kids. And it was a slow, slow process. I'm the first to say that when I started my business, I didn't really know what I was doing when it came to the business side. I've been a designer. I knew the design side, but I was doing a lot of guest work when it came to the business. So as you said, I've hired a lot of coaches and it's because I needed it. needed a lot of help. I realized probably about like five years in.
how woefully unprepared I was and how it was just such a slow process those first five years. And granted, I wasn't in a season of life where I could spend my full day working on the business. I still had a lot to do with my kids, but it was such a slow process and I was really just, I was a lot of guessing. And when I finally got to the point where referrals were consistent and I was busy,
I was seeing all the gaps in my business and I was like, I need help. So that's what led eventually to hiring coaches, repetitively, you know, different ones at different times, doing more industry reach out and really just kind of investing in my business, not just haphazardly approaching it as I was already doing.
Shauna Lynn Simon (05:00.044)
Yeah, and I think, you know, I think everyone reaches a different stage in their business where they're like, I need some support. And that support can look like a lot of different things. And this is something I know you've always been really passionate about. You have worked with your local community to bring designers together, to have discussions, to share knowledge. You attend a lot of industry events. You've been a part of, you know, numerous interior design events. I know you've talked about, like you subscribe to.
all the podcasts out there. It can be a lot to keep up with, but you're constantly consuming more knowledge, consuming more information, looking for greater and better ways to do things. But again, I know you're really well connected within your own industry. And so your experiences don't just come from what you've experienced. You've taken a lot of the challenges that you see out there in the industry. And that's a part of like what
Sonia Barney (05:30.766)
Too many.
Shauna Lynn Simon (05:57.634)
fuels you today in all that you do. So tell us a little bit about what was happening in the industry or in your own business that made you think designers need Kaivari. And we'll talk a little bit more about what exactly Kaivari is in a moment, but what kind of led you to thinking like the industry needs this? And of course then the follow-up to that is, and then at what point were you like, well, the industry needs this, so I'm going to have to create it.
Sonia Barney (06:24.888)
guess it's me if I have the idea. So no, like a lot of it is stemming from my own journey of, and it's somewhat painful. Not all of the people I've hired through to help coach me. again, coaching doesn't mean you're having someone come be a drill sergeant to you. It's experts that come in and guide you and give you tidbits of advice on specific areas of business or the whole foundation of it. I'm like, these are teachers. These are
mentors. These are people that I have hired at multiple times. And every single one of them, I will say has helped me, but not every single one of them has been a right fit at that time. There were times that I, and I've shared this with you, Shauna Lynn, there was one coach that I met with them for a year and I cried after almost every call with them. Still a wonderful human being, just was a personality mismatch.
and the way they delivered the advice was just super harsh for what I can handle at that time. I've had other ones where I'm just like, I don't think we're on the same wavelength. And again, did they still help me? Yes, there was still a move with the needle, but what I noticed that if there is some type of barrier with somebody, you're not gonna move as far. And you're kind of wasting that opportunity to connect, like to really invest in it.
We as designers, don't have unlimited amount of time in our day. We have so much of this that we're like, okay, if I'm going to work on my business, I want to make the most of my time. So why would you leave it to chance that it's going to be with a coach that you don't get along with? And again, it has nothing to do with anybody's individual being wrong. It's about just that connecting, is it the learning style? Are they teaching the way that you like to consume?
Are is there the personality match? it, do they understand your industry? Cause there's some coaches out there as wonderful as they are. They might not know the interior design industry. And then you're feeling like you're teaching them the whole time. So, after I had gone through that and I was picking up on, my goodness, this sometimes this just doesn't work out. I would talk to my other friends, my other designer friends and they were going through it too. And I, I had already said, maybe it's a me thing and had already kind of.
Sonia Barney (08:50.06)
said, I'm willing to have lost that money in time. But when I was hearing other people losing tens of thousands of dollars in a mismatch of hiring the wrong coach, because it was a coaching program that they'd heard so much about. was popular. Everybody was saying, this is the right one for you. They're like, it wasn't, it was okay, but it wasn't worth what I spent on it. So it's like, Hmm, there's something there. And that's when I started thinking I there's gotta be a better way.
to find the support we need. If we're gonna take that leap and hire an expert to help guide us and fine tune our businesses, why don't we spend just a little bit more time finding the right one? Don't hire the first one. Second.
Shauna Lynn Simon (09:37.166)
Take a second. I've spoken openly and candidly with my audience about the fact that I invested in a coach a few years back and I lost essentially six figures with that coach. the time that they were giving me this framework to follow, that I then had my team working on that, my team was spending 10 to 20 hours on a week. so it cost me on all that labor expense.
In addition to the five figures I spent on the actual coaching itself, my own time, and then you add on top of that, we spent about five months together with no results. And in that time, the goal was to actually increase my revenue. So the lost revenue each month that went by from me spending this, my team spending this almost 20 hours a week on these efforts that were.
we could have spent those 20 hours on something that would have been actually fruitful. So like it was a very painful experience, but it goes to show that even someone in my position isn't immune to falling for the empty promises or, um, and I, know, I'm reluctant to say that this is a coach that can't help anyone. Uh, it definitely wasn't a fit for me. Um, I think that there was a massive mismatch that had been identified very early on and they kept trying to,
Explain it away and that was challenging for me because I think this is the thing that a lot of us run into is you're having a conversation with the coach and the coach wants to sail at the end of the day. Like any business we want the we want the sale, but I mean interior designers I know have walked away from clients where they're like, I don't think this is the right fit. Let me point you in the right direction. I know personally as a coach I have absolutely done it with clients where I've done the initial intake call with them and I said, you know what? I just don't see this being the right fit. I don't think I'm what you need.
and I will walk away. It is incredibly rare that someone is coming to me where they're not a good fit. But I am comfortable and confident enough to be able to tell them to go somewhere else. But a lot of coaches, like they're just trying to make bank, right? Like it's they want the next client. And if it's not going to be a good fit, it's not going to be good for anyone. So it is a real challenge. Now, I want to circle back to before we dive too much further into this, you know, getting the right coach. I want to circle back to something you talked about, and that was that as an interior designer,
Shauna Lynn Simon (12:01.742)
You have like this much time. Yeah. the excess time is not a thing, especially for someone who is a mom and a wife and whatever else you've got going on. mean, for myself, I don't have kids or a spouse, but as anyone on the video version can see, I've got three very active cats that like my attention. But I also have, you know, family commitments and responsibilities and volunteer commitments and responsibilities. And not to mention just like just hobbies and life in general.
all in addition to my work. finding the time to spend on the business versus in the business for any business is definitely challenging. So when you hear a designer that says to you like, I'm too busy for coaching, what do you lovingly want to say back to them when you hear that? Because obviously, at no point in your career, I don't think have you ever been like, wow, I've got so much time on my hands, I should probably get some coaching now.
Sonia Barney (12:57.75)
It goes against our grain because we're like, we don't have time to invest in an hour call and homework because a coach isn't going to do it for you. They're going to say, okay, this is what you need to work on this between our now and our next call. So there is work that you need to be doing. It's like taking a break from your business and diving into it. what I tell them is the same thing that probably a doctor would tell somebody who was unhealthy. You need to diet and exercise.
You need to take care of it. You need to sleep. You need to do this. You need to actually stop doing the things that are working against you and put in the healthy practices back into your life. it's habits. And the nice thing about working with a coach is that their goal is to get you more hours in your day, to make your life easier, to make it more efficient. So yes, you might need to pause a little bit on the client work or just carve out some extra time.
But in the end, the ROI is that you're going to get those hours back and it's gonna be better. A lot of times when I'm talking to designers, they're like, my systems, I'm just like running around like a chicken with my head cut off. I'm hopping from here to there. I wish there was like just a system and a routine. And I'm like, well, guess what a coach will do? They'll help you create that. And then it's automated and there's a wonderful flow chart and your team can do it. And then all of a sudden, six months from now,
you had those hours back, but you do have to pause. do have to have that moment of reflection of, can keep doing this is the definition of insanity. Keep doing the same thing over and over again, or actually go and get somebody who can do it for you. And I mean, the reason you go to a coach is because they've been in your shoes before they have done it. They have created a model that they have not only proven it works for them.
proven it works for multiple people because they keep teaching it to other people and it works. It doesn't mean there won't be a slight tweaking to make it adjust for you, but there is a secret sauce and you're going to them so that you don't have to recreate that sauce. Why? Why are we going and saying, I'm going to figure it out myself? That was my thing. Like those first five years, it's like, I'll figure it out. I don't know how to invoice somebody. I don't know how to do sales tax, but I'll figure it out.
Sonia Barney (15:21.484)
wasted my time when someone could just have like explained it to me.
Shauna Lynn Simon (15:25.784)
Well, yeah, I mean, think you touched on it earlier where you're talking about all the different podcasts that are out there that are available. And you've said to me like every day, like your feed fills up with 10 new episodes have just dropped and you can listen to all those episodes. But realistically, you don't have the time, even if you're listening to it at warp speed, which is how only the only way I listen to my audio books and my podcast, it's still there's only so much that I can actually consume. Whereas with a coach.
there might be a particular podcast or training lesson or something that's going to support you outside of your actual call with them. But again, they can pinpoint exactly what that is. They're going to streamline that information and get you to this precise information that you need to consume without you having to go down the rabbit hole. And I think today more than ever, aside from podcasts, just the rabbit hole is massive. It is absolutely endless between AI,
and social media and all the webinars that are out there. Like I remember when I started doing webinars, which was back in around 2015, I think was when I hosted my first webinar. And at the time I was using Zoom and people were like, what is that? Like they had never even heard of the platform before. And then of course, know, COVID hits and all of a sudden everyone was like, have you heard of this thing called Zoom? Like, yeah, I've been on it for about five years, but that's when like virtual learning really took off.
because that was our only access essentially. So everyone moved to virtual learning. Well now every single day you could find five different webinars that you can take that would probably have great valuable information for you. But then you get to that information overload and analysis paralysis. And I know like I've got one of my coaching clients, being a client of mine, Sonia, I know that you know I'm always saying get.
different perspectives, learn from different coaches, learn from different trainers, know, listen to the other podcasts and get those perspectives. But I have one particular client where I'm like, don't do any of that because she is so prone to shiny object syndrome that if I know she's going to want to watch another training, I'm like, okay, let me vet the training first and make sure that you're getting the right information out of it. And I have never gate-kept with the client the way that I do with her, but I just know that like in her case, she does get overwhelmed by
Shauna Lynn Simon (17:44.494)
all the information that's out there and then wants to try to apply it all. And I know that she's not alone in that, you you consume this webinar, like, oh my gosh, this is amazing. And now I need to implement all these things. But again, that was very generic information that was given to a group of, you know, potentially hundreds of people. Whereas a coach is going to be more one-on-one with you and help you to take what you learn from that training and apply it directly to your business. So.
On that note, let's get into this whole, like said, I am very much an advocate of get different perspectives, learn from different people. I would love to say for anyone listening to this podcast, of course, that if you're looking for a coach, hello, like I got to come and see me. But at the end of the day, that's not necessarily going to be the right solution for every person out there. I am humble enough to be able to admit that I may not be the right fit for every single person that's out there. I know where my strengths are.
Sonia Barney (18:23.83)
She's amazing.
Shauna Lynn Simon (18:39.896)
But I also, are certain things. And again, Sonia, as a client of mine, I have literally sent you to other people. I have, I call them my success partners and every client who works with me also gets access to my success partners. And there are times where I'm like, you need to go and work with this person and dive in further with them, as opposed to working further with me. I got you to this point, they're gonna get you over that next finish line. again, and I have vetted my success partners. My success partners are skilled in very specific areas and I know exactly how to match them.
with my clients. And in fact, Sonya, I think you're working with like two or three of them right now. So like, you know, you've, you've definitely, you know, gone in that direction with my, my full blessing. But for someone who is dealing with the sea of coaches that's out there, like they're, they're kind of overwhelmed by there's so many people out there listening to all these podcasts. They all sound great. Why do think they're getting stuck and not doing anything? Like what, what is
What is preventing them from being able to take that next step and being able to say, I mean, they're listening to the podcast or listen to the trainings. They see all these great coaches. Why can't they actually like pinpoint and say like, well, this is clearly the one I'm going to connect the most with. What do think is keeping them stuck?
Sonia Barney (19:49.096)
It's a myriad of things. mean, a lot, some of the reasons I have found for designers is it's the time we've already talked about that could be a money mindset. They're like, I don't want to invest in my business because I don't know if we'll get that back out. they may have worked with a coach and had a bad experience and a fear of investing again. but also if they're not coached before, they might misunderstand the different types of coaches that are out there and the different types of programs.
And that's a lot of what Kaivari does too, is to help people understand that and help place you where you need to be and kind of guide that journey a little bit. But let's dive into it. Like you can have coaches that offer foundational. They're gonna help you if you're starting a business, it might be if you're in the middle, you know, like.
Shauna Lynn Simon (20:37.134)
The messy middle where you forgot to build those foundations before you built the rest of it. Yeah.
Sonia Barney (20:43.022)
They're gonna help you go back. You've got coaches that are gonna specifically work on profit. You've got coaches that will specifically work on speaking or sales. You've got ones that will specifically work on marketing. There are so many different types of coaches from broad reaching to catered and specific topics. And then the programs themselves vary. You've got ones that offer modules where it's learn as you at your own speed.
Like if you've only got time when your kids are off in bed, that's a great one for you. You hop on, you listen to a couple of modules, you do a little work. You've got other ones that are only one-on-one. One-on-one's more expensive, but people want that. And then you've got people who are hybrids where they're like, we offer the modules that you can absorb and take on as much as you want, but we also offer the one-on-one and we offer group coaching. There are so many ways to...
approach the coaching program. And that's the hardest part is that there is such a C. I mean, I've talked with coaches since COVID and since this online learning thing, the coaching pool has just exploded to an ocean and they're all, I wouldn't say every single person out there is fabulous, but the ones I have met, they're all fabulous. And I think that they're great at what they do, but they're not, there's no like direct comparison. Everybody is a different,
apple or orange or banana, everybody's somewhat different and you've got to go actually know what type you need before you invest in them. And so I really think that people need to have a little bit more clarity before they commit to any coach.
Shauna Lynn Simon (22:25.038)
So let's talk a little bit about Kaivari, because we've mentioned the company name a few times, and kind of alluded to some of the things that it does. And we've mentioned it does do a bit of matching you to the coach and resources and community that you need. Let's back that up a little bit and just kind of plain English. What does it look like? If someone's like, I'm interested in Kaivari, what are they going to get out of it? Because it's not just about the coaching element. And it's not to sell you on coaching either.
So explain a little bit about what Kaivari is as a platform.
Sonia Barney (22:57.112)
Kaivari, as you said, is a platform specifically designed for interior designers to connect and build a support network that's gonna help them grow. And so it's going to potentially finding the right coach, the right service provider, and the community of peers that we act as our accountability partners and friends, and we can all grow with. It is not another heavy tool out there or a...
Facebook group or something that you have to like invest a lot of time in. It is this safety net that you have that will always allow you to connect with the right people and help pinpoint where you need to be. Within Kaivari, we offer Coach Connection, which is our matchmaking or coach matchmaking process to help identify what designers need and align them with the right coach. I do all the vetting of coaches and service providers. So you feel this confidence level of knowing that they're there.
We offer additional learning opportunities that are only available on the platform. There's free resources. And then I've loved that designers get to connect with other designers every month. There's so much that we're offering. but essentially boiling it down, it's a connection. It's making it so those that were like me 10 years ago, building it in your basement, you're no longer doing it alone. You can still have a solo business.
and feel like you have a team of experts right beside you.
Shauna Lynn Simon (24:29.656)
think that's the biggest misconception that a design business like, yes, you know, a lot of them are solo operated and some may never bring an actual junior designer or design assistant or admin or anyone else onto their staff. And they are literally doing all the things alone. But that doesn't mean you actually have to do it alone. Again, there's a whole community. I mean, I know as someone coming from the staging business prior to joining interior design, it's a very different community. In staging, everyone's like,
here's all of my ideas and thoughts, take them, use them, do whatever you want with them. And then in interior design, I was finding there was a bit of a gap there. And it's something that like a mutual contact of ours, Luanne Negara, like she has really helped to bridge that gap. And so many have followed suit in bringing interior designers together in a more intentional way. There's still a gap to be fulfilled there, but there are so many designers that are just craving that connection. Because one of the coolest things, I remember the first time I attended a conference,
with all these other stages was you would talk about something like a challenge that you're facing. And sounds like, yeah, I totally had that same challenge. Here's how I solved it. I'm like, what? You had the same thing as me? Like, how is that even possible? And you just go, you, you feel so isolated and so alone. And I think that that connection is really what we're, we're craving. And, and I think that is so beyond yes, the, the coaching and everything else, you've got this community.
that is curated specifically. like, there's, you know, kind of similar to social media platform. There are some feeds that you can, you know, see what's been posted and such, but there's also the individual groups that you can really connect with where it gets a bit more specific and you're meeting with them intentionally on a regular basis and really diving into things with someone who is in the same sort of level of business as you dealing with similar challenges to you, but they're not in your competitive market. So you can share.
openly and honestly. And that I actually just wrote an article about this a couple of weeks ago about the value of accountability partners and how everyone should have one. I encourage my clients all the time to get an accountability partner, that person that you can bounce ideas off of. And I know that you actually have an entire group of ladies that you met at the event that you and I met at, which was Luanne Negara's Power Talk Friday event in Las Vegas a couple of years back. And that you and that group of ladies have
Shauna Lynn Simon (26:52.728)
kept in touch since the event and get together on a regular basis. Like how powerful is that that you have that opportunity?
Sonia Barney (27:00.088)
This, was a game changer. And I know people were like, well, how do you even start with that? Cause how do you meet people from around the world that you just eventually, you know, do events like power talk Friday or Kaivari or something where you get to meet other people. But it has been illuminating cause we meet each month via Zoom and just share the woes, share the wins. We are each other's cheerleaders. are honestly invested in each other's success.
And knowing it doesn't take away from our success. And that's what's really great. It's like, you get rid of that layer of competition that sometimes still lingers in our local groups. As much as I love my local group, there's still a little bit of that like hesitation when it's ladies and gentlemen, but our group is ladies, from all over. There's no competition. just like, yeah, here's, here's the template I use. this is what my recent coach taught me. Like there's just so much that we're getting from each other and.
Hint, hint, that's free. Like that's the best thing about having business buddies and accountability partners is you can encourage each other and you can also move the needle in your business with only the investment of your time and your, your, your compassion and your willingness to give as much as you get.
Shauna Lynn Simon (28:14.114)
Yeah, to be able to tap into that is just incredible. essentially, like in that case, it's no charge. not that Kaivari is not a free platform necessarily, but it's a relatively minimal fee just to get all of that. And then the coach connection, as we talked about, is on top of that. That if you are ready for a coach, instead of going out to this massive sea of coaches, you can get it pinpointed to exactly which coach or coaches you're best suited for.
Now this is actually a proprietary framework that you've created in order to be able to match people. So tell us a little bit, obviously I don't want you giving away all your secrets or anything, but give us a little bit of insight as to like, can someone feel confident that Sonia is going to know exactly who I need to be paired up with? Like this is not necessarily a crystal ball you're looking into or asking the stars to tell you about, like you are a very data driven kind of person. So tell us a little bit about how you're matching people.
Sonia Barney (29:10.168)
Yes, I am self-proclaimed a giant nerd. I love my spreadsheets and I love tests and all of that. So you can all just laugh and joke from afar. But I enjoy that. And when I was coming up with this, was like, immediately I knew the things in the hiring process that I had missed. And some of that was trying to figure out personality, trying to figure out what their program entailed. What are these deliverables?
What is it that I need? And so those were immediately the questions that started popping my head of what would need to be asked of the coach and of the person, the potential coachee. What do we need there? So the coach connection process is really in depth. All the coaches on our platform have gone through an intensive. It's multi-layered. There's a long questionnaire.
Some of the coaches are not thrilled with how long it is. Sorry. I don't enjoy it.
Shauna Lynn Simon (30:11.63)
It was my least favorite part of getting on the platform, I'll admit. Yes. But I see the value in it.
Sonia Barney (30:15.064)
Yeah, sorry.
Sonia Barney (30:19.102)
so we are trying to get to know the coaches as much as possible, not just from what they share with us online. Cause I could just go to their website. So I'm trying to dig into who they are and how they teach, figure out their personality and try to figure out who did they work best with. So there's that part of it. And then we're also, you know, we're doing full vetting. are asking their past clients about them. are continuously vetting. So confidence level, you should be feel really high of any of the coaches on Kaivari.
the other side of that is that we are also going to be onboarding anybody that's a designer. If you're doing a coach connection, you've got also a lengthy questionnaire. I want to find out about you. This isn't surface level directory style here. This is truly getting to know people. Think of it as match.com, LinkedIn and had a beautiful, wonderful, fabulous designer baby. That's what Kaivari is and with coach connections specifically that we are here.
to fully understand who you are. And if I was your matchmaker finding you love, wouldn't you want me to like, fully understand who you are and who they are and make sure that you connect? So it's, it's a really deep analysis.
Shauna Lynn Simon (31:31.278)
We're going to dive into this a little bit more. I want to talk a little bit more about fit because for some people, maybe the Kaivari platform is not the right fit for you either. So I want to talk about if someone's going to be vetting their own coach, some of the things that they should be taking into consideration for doing that. And we're going to do that as soon as we come back from this quick break. We'll be right back after this quick message. This episode of the Real Women Real Business podcast is brought to you by, well, potentially you.
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Alright, welcome back to the Real Women Real Business podcast where I am speaking with Sonia Barney, the founder of Kaivari and Sonia Barney Designs. And we're talking about how to find the right fit for a coach, how to choose a coach. And I mean, it's not that different from choosing interior designer. There's, you know, again, there's going to be fits that work well. And other times the clients where you're like, I'm not vibing with this client necessarily. But I think what it comes down to is,
Let's use interior design for an example. Interior design is a business that is built heavily on referrals, which is great because people come to us very warm leads. Generally, if people are kind of similar in, you they get along, they're friends, they're like-minded people, chances are if you got along with one, you're going to get along with another one. That said, those two people might have different communication styles, different learning styles, different everything. And I don't know about you, but I will say
Shauna Lynn Simon (33:37.932)
There is nothing worse than getting that referral where someone's like, I have this particular person and they don't care whatsoever about what your needs are. They haven't asked you a single question, but like, well, what is it that you're looking for? If I've just said like, I need a painter to paint some rooms. Okay, sure. No offense, painters are kind of a dime a dozen. But if I'm saying like, I need a mural done. Well, that's going to be a bit more specific. And so someone's going to ask me more questions about, how big is the mural? Do you want it to be abstract or is it supposed to be more specific? And like, what do we want that to actually look like?
I know as someone who has been single more of my life than not, one of the things that a lot of my friends would like me to not be single anymore. Although I will say this, this doesn't, this has not come up nearly as often as it used to when I was younger. But, you know, as you get older, people just kind of accept like she is who she is and like, let's just let her live her life. But I would often get where people would find out that I'm single.
And especially, let's say, a friend's significant other, their partner, I meet him for the first time, he finds out that I'm single, he's like, my gosh, I have the perfect person for him. Like, yeah, is he single? And that's like the only criteria that he has used to identify whether or not this person is the right person for me. Because he has a single friend, she has a single friend, clearly, we should just be a couple, obviously, right? Like just, works. But it's literally the only criteria that's being used to vet.
Whereas I have had friends of mine that have said, like, if you were interested in someone, what are some characteristics or things that you're looking for? I have also had some of my friends tell me, well, you need to change those. You're not going to find the person you're looking for if you don't change something. But I'm okay not finding the person. So, so this is okay with me, but I don't believe that you should have to compromise what your own needs are to fit, to find someone who's a good fit for you. So now let's say that a designer wants kind of a
quick way to finding a coach, finding the right coach. What are some ways that like, what are some things that they should be doing to vet them? Let's say, you know, this is not necessarily on an actual call. We'll get to, I would love to know like some questions they should ask of a coach, but let's just talk about just screening the sea of coaches that's out there. And they're to spend maybe 15 minutes going down the rabbit hole and not, not a ton of time, but they want to be able to quickly scan through a bunch of coaches and find one that might be a good fit. What are some initial things that they should
Shauna Lynn Simon (36:01.302)
Look for again. I wanted to say "Hi, choose me aboutshaunalynn.com/coachme if you want to set up a call." but let's say that they're looking through other coaches besides myself. What are some things they should be looking at?
Sonia Barney (36:12.334)
Well, hopefully if you only have 15 minutes, hopefully you want to look at the ones that you've already been following. Are they the ones on social media? Are they the ones that you're listening to in a podcast? If you've been following them, you probably feel somewhat like you like their personality and the way they chat and all the information that they're giving. So start there. And then it might be identifying more of what you need and compare it to what they sell. Again, some have.
broad programs that are foundations. Some of them are all about sales. Some are this. So you've got to understand what gaps do I have in my business? I'm not going to just sell. I'm not going to just spend money to spend money. I want to spend money on what's going to move the needle in my business. it's that 15 minutes might also include a little introspection of saying, what is it I'm willing to invest in this year on myself, on the business? Do I need help with my mindset? Do I need help with my
my systems and processes, do I need help with my bookkeeping, where are the gaps in my business? And do any of these coaches I already listened to fill that need? And then you can, once you kind of get that narrowed down a little bit, then the next step is probably having some actual discovery calls and connections with them because we only see so much of our coaches through social media and podcasts. You want to connect with them on a deeper level. if you can get,
Even if it's a paid discovery call, sometimes you can do like a one-off coaching session with a coach and which is great. You can test them with like a quick question of like, here's a challenge that's happening in my life. You are getting actionable advice from them immediately. It's like a paid initial consultation. If we're going to apply it to how we do this, if you do that with one of those coaches or a couple of coaches, it's a great way to test out if you are vibing and if it's going to be a good fit in the longer run.
Shauna Lynn Simon (38:02.19)
I think that's a really good point. Yeah. If the entire conversation with the coach is all sales and they're not asking you questions, they're not digging into your business at all. That is a red flag that I would say to run from. But one of the things that you also talked about was that introspection. I want to kind of circle back to that because I think this is, I will say as a coach and I've spoken to other coaches about this, one of the things that we find is people will come to me they'll say, I need help with hiring because I need to hire someone. But if they actually did some introspection,
and reviewed where they were having challenges in their business, hiring might not actually be the right answer for them. So we need to back that up to that is a symptom, but what is the root cause of it? So again, having some of those calls with the coaches will often help you to identify some of those causes. And of course, I'm not going to get into, you you and I've had very confidential conversations. So I don't want to get into all the details of the things that you and I have discussed, but I can say when you first
came to me, you had certain ideas about what you were looking for. And I had different ideas. I can remember saying to him like, actually, think this is where we need to start and look at where it's taken you because we did that. But your own diagnostics of it, your own analysis of it, you end up hitting sort of like a barrier in our own perspective that we don't have that objectivity that a coach can bring sometimes. So
I think, yeah, I think it's a great start on social media. think doing that introspection and so identifying where you think you need some help and then being able to share that with the coach and let them help you to interpret what does that actually mean for the support that you need? Not a sales pitch, but just helping you to kind of identify like, and again, you should be able to get, I've never done a coaching assessment call with someone where they didn't get something out of it. So even if we don't end up working together, they got.
real advice, real actionable tips out of it and real value from it. So it's never a waste of time to do those calls. I shouldn't say never. Again, some coaches will be all about the hard sell and that's all they're talking about in the call. I would generally say that's a bit of a red flag. I remember doing a call with a woman last year when I was in a search for a coach and she was telling me how she could solve all my problems but didn't ask me a single question. So I didn't know what quote.
Shauna Lynn Simon (40:22.606)
problems or challenges I was even facing. She's like, I've got the solution. like, how do you know you have the solution? You literally haven't asked me a single question. She just went immediately into sales pitch and why she was amazing and all the testimonials and why I should work with her. I'm like, cool. No, didn't call her.
Sonia Barney (40:37.442)
Well, what I love here is I'm hearing you're still out there looking for coaches for yourself. Absolutely. There is an end to a point in which we don't need other people in our life to help support us and get us to the next level.
Shauna Lynn Simon (40:50.102)
I don't think so. I think if anything, I just continue to level up the coaches. And I will say that that probably becomes the biggest challenge. And I've spoken to other coaches about this as well, of finding the right fit as you continue to advance gets more and more challenging because it is a little bit more specific and niche in terms of like the real support that you're looking for. It's not sort of this generic stuff. I still do some group coaching that I get a ton of value from.
You just never, what's great about group coaching is you get answers to questions you didn't know you had. So someone else will ask a question. So there's always value to that. But I also enjoy the one-on-one and I'll admit I don't have a one-on-one coach right now. I shouldn't say that if unofficially I kind of do have someone who's been supporting me, but I'd like a more official capacity for it. And I'm not sure that they're the right fit for me. But again, it's been a challenge to find that person who is the right fit.
So I don't think there's ever an end to coaching. Like, are you ever done building your business? Are you ever done working on yourself? Right.
Sonia Barney (41:56.45)
We are always trying to improve ourselves just in terms of 1 % every day. so it's, I like how you're just like, I might not find the right coach, but I'm going to continue to, you read voraciously. And like, there are lots of ways to improve ourselves each day. Coaching, finding a peer network, hiring the right service providers. That's just one way. There are multiple ways to continue to improve ourselves.
Shauna Lynn Simon (42:21.036)
Yeah. And I think it's important to, again, tap into multiple avenues wherever space and capacity allows you to because, again, books are intended to be more general knowledge for people. I listen to any books and I do listen to books. I don't physically read them. It's the only way that I can consume those by listening to them. And I would say there are some books where, might be a 10-hour book and I got two small things out of it in the end.
But those two small things are great. And so you have to be able to like sift through all that information. It's different when you're working with a coach. I'm not going to say like 100 % of what the coach tells you to do is going to be gold, but it's going to be more specific to you and more streamlined. So it is a bit of a quicker fix, so to speak, for some of the challenges that you're having, especially if like, if you're having a spiraling moment and you can hop on a quick call or conversation with the coach, that is going to be way better than trying to like, well, let me just dig into this book.
for five hours and see if it's got any answers for me. So there's two different things.
Sonia Barney (43:21.122)
That's exactly right. Like I look back, one of my favorite benefits of coach was the little instantaneous wisdom that you get from somebody. I can, I, Shauna Lynn can attest to this. There were moments where I spiraled. I'm a human. I have days of self doubt. I have days of being like, this is really hard. But what was great is that Shauna Lynn was willing to help me on the things we were already tackling. But then also the random things that would pop up. She helped me with my health. She helped me with
legal issues, not that she was a lawyer, but like, I'm coming up with this crazy thing with the client. She gives the instantaneous wisdom from her experience, not only her life, but her knowledge base and can point me in the right direction. I love AI. I use it, but there's only so far AI can get you. This is exactly a situation where a human being who knows what you're going through, you've already
spent a lot of time together, they're there to guide you and you bring them a question, they're going to get you a better answer than going out and hoping to find it in a book or a podcast or on AI. There's no other better source.
Shauna Lynn Simon (44:35.19)
So let's say that I'm on a discovery call with a new coach. What are some of the questions that I need to be asking to get the right answers? I know one thing that you mentioned was bring them an actual real life challenge you're facing. And I love that one. I think that that is gold. Like it's just like, you're hiring, think of it this way, if you're hiring an employee, don't you want to test them a little bit before you hire them? Like you might give them an Excel test or, you know, sourcing tests or some sort of other real life experience test.
So there's no reason why you can't test your coach. Now, don't get me wrong. If you're asking the coach to give you a three hour strategy on something like that, it's a little bit different, but yeah, bring some actual challenges to them. What are some other questions though, when we're figuring out fit? Cause I mean, mentioned earlier that, know, fit has to do with their style, their personality, their values, their results, their communication, accountability, like all the different things like, and what do we need?
So how do we know what questions to actually ask that help us to identify is this the right fit?
Sonia Barney (45:34.856)
I have, I love this and this is exactly the list that I've been distilling because I feel like most people don't go into situations enough interviewing people and asking the right questions. You know, when we're interior designers, we are doing initial consultations all the time. People are kind of interviewing us. We are kind of interviewing them. We need to take that same approach and put it into when we talk to potential coaches and know that
It is important to ask those questions. also want, there's gonna be, they're gonna be asking us questions and we're gonna be asking them. It's a interview process. So some of the questions that I think are really important after you've kind of figured out maybe what you want, I want you to understand more of what their deliverables are. Ask the coach, is this something where you do any do it for you services? There are coaches that do that. Some of them are strictly mentors and some,
include a little bit of like, but I will dive in here and help you set this up. That's a really big plus. If you can find a coach that can do that. Now, again, that might not be an area. Like if it's mindset, they're not going to come in and physically fix your mind. That's not what that is. Most coaches you're going to be doing the majority of the work, but if they have extra do it for you services within their program, it's going to be a little bit more expensive, but it might be exactly what you need.
Shauna Lynn Simon (46:47.756)
the work.
Sonia Barney (47:01.792)
in your situation. So think of what are the deliverables. Other things like some designers.
Shauna Lynn Simon (47:08.182)
just going back to the deliverables as well though, like a deliverable can also be, will I get a copy of the recording? Or will you send me a summary report? Some coaches, you're going to have a conversation like this and then see you later, you're on your own. And for some people that's, that's all they want. Other, other people want like, give me the bullet points of what am I actually supposed to be working on here?
Sonia Barney (47:28.97)
Exactly what I was going to jump into. Some designers truly don't take notes that they're in that and they're just there to absorb and enjoy it. I'm the nerd that's over here taking notes and I'm putting it in my insana afterwards, but I don't, I know I'm not like everybody. And so if you can have a coach that helps you organize and then follow up on the tasks, you're more likely to do it. But I will say, if you're looking to work with a coach, please take notes, please assign yourself homework because
If you don't, you won't move as fast. Like you've got to put in the work and you've got to take that ownership and the coaches can only go so far. But if it's a coach who is super organized and sends you the recordings and send you a quick synapse, not synapsis, but synopsis. Thank you of what you should be working on. game changer. Love it.
Shauna Lynn Simon (48:20.958)
a nice reference point. you might be different from I know there are some clients that I coach, especially, you know, I work with a lot of neurodivergent clients at all different spectrums. And so some who are neurodivergent really want that list, because they desperately need that list. Others are like, you can give me that list, I'm never going to actually look at it. Right. So even though like there's value to it, they might, it might not actually
be a deal breaker for you. Cause you're like, listen, I just know I'm not going to lean into the list. I'm never going to look at it. I'm never going to go back to it. Yeah.
Sonia Barney (48:54.35)
So that would be the question. You need to identify what deliverables do I need that would contribute to my success in this program and ask the coach what they offer. And it might be just saying like, explain what you include and what this kind of looks like. You know, I know that there are designers out there who say, I don't want group coaching. Well, group coaching can look kind of different for each coach. So actually ask them, what does it look like in our group, in your group?
Shauna Lynn Simon (49:19.309)
Yeah.
Sonia Barney (49:23.96)
coaching sessions, what does it look like on a one-on-one? What should I anticipate and expect? You want to go in with your eyes wide open of like, okay, I am prepared to learn in this environment. If you went to take a college course and they said, first day you need to have, I'm going back to old school, protractor, pencil, notebook and everything, but you didn't really read the syllabus, you didn't know that was in there and you showed up and you didn't have anything, you would feel so behind.
ask your coach, what should I come prepared with that day? So there's, there's a whole host of questions. I could go, we could spend a whole hour talking about it. Instead, what I would love to give to your listeners is a free download. They can, it's questions you can ask yourself and questions that you can ask the coach so that when you are interviewing, you feel like you can ask the right things that are going to help you make the right decision for you. And it's all about getting that right fit.
Shauna Lynn Simon (49:58.102)
I like that.
Shauna Lynn Simon (50:23.86)
a huge resource because you're saying like it's also giving you the questions to ask yourself which I think is the the the part that we often get stuck on too of like I don't even know what questions I'm supposed to ask myself and so then like we get just stuck like that stuck feeling doesn't feel great and then having the questions as well once you find you know kind of get your short list of coaches to have the questions to be able to ask them because even if they do the matchmaking with you through Kaivari they still need to do those calls with the coaches and make sure that it's a fit so they still need to be able to ask the questions so
So where can we get this download?
Sonia Barney (50:54.99)
So we're going to offer it at kaivari.com backslash or forward slash one of the slashes questions. Yeah. Thank you. we will have that there. You guys can just download it. It's going to be, those are the starting questions. You can always ask more and I want you to, but these are the ones that are going to get you to the meat of what they offer and how they're different from other coaching programs. Every coach out there is going to promise transformation. They're going to promise an increase of profits, an increase of time. The messaging is.
pretty similar, you want to find out what makes them different from the other coach that you're considering.
Shauna Lynn Simon (51:31.436)
Love that. That is brilliant. Yeah. No, that's great. Okay. So we have definitely gone over our time. This has been such a valuable conversation. Of course, I could talk about this all day. I know how passionate you are about it. So I know you could as well, but what are some sort of final, what have we not talked about that you're like, before we end this, interview, I just need to leave this one thought of, of, of what people need to know about finding a coach for themselves.
Sonia Barney (51:57.142)
just remember that guesswork is expensive. If you are still living from the reality of shooting from your hip, which I've been there, it's an expensive place to live. It is so much better to live from a place of clarity and having your eyes wide open of what's available to you and making wise decisions for you and your business. So consider, slow down and consider before you commit to things.
Shauna Lynn Simon (52:26.592)
It's sort of like the saying that we have in design business, whereas, you know, if you think it's expensive to hire a professional, wait till you hire an amateur. It's like the do it yourself option can often be even more expensive than the expert option because there's so much trial and error in it. And I mean, I know that I, as much as I have formal training in certain areas, I also learn from the school of hard knocks for other areas. And let me tell you, I mean, I didn't save any money.
At no point did I save any money in getting those lessons by a non-formal training. No, no, they actually came at a much higher cost at times. So I think that's incredibly valuable. So where can people find you and Kaivari online?
Sonia Barney (53:09.422)
So, Kaivari.com is the website you can go on. We are open for pre-sale right now so you can get early access, start testing out some of the wonderful features as I've kind of dived into some of them that we have. We are opening for full launch later this spring. And then you can also find us at @KaivariCo on Instagram.
Shauna Lynn Simon (53:31.662)
Amazing. Honestly, like this has been such a valuable conversation. I think one that has been needed for a long time. I know I was just actually speaking with another client earlier today about, know, she wants to do a social media post for her particular industry of like, how do I tell people that these are all the things that make up my price? I'm like, that's easy. You do a post about how to choose someone of your skillset and show them all the different things that they can be doing. And I think that is the thing of like,
you know, it's important that people understand the how to choose part whenever they're looking for any sort of specialized service. And coaching is exactly that. And I think that so many people just get tied up in either not doing anything or choosing the coach. That's the loudest out there. Listen, I don't have the biggest following. I have a decent following. Don't get me wrong. And pretty good engagement from my followers and such. And I've got a great audience and great clients. And I do a lot of business through referrals.
but I'm not necessarily the loudest one out there. I'm not making all the noise necessarily. I'm louder than some. I'm not exactly quiet either, but you I'm not doing all the meta ads and I'm not in your face every other day and I'm not doing these crazy powerful reels where things are blowing up and stuff like that. Like that's just not my style. So I'm not necessarily going to be the one that everyone is seeing, but it doesn't mean that I don't have value. And the same can be said for so many of the coaches that I recommend. mean, the success partners that I work with,
Many of them don't even do any real promotion. So me being able to send them to the right people is so huge. But I think that sometimes it's easy to get caught in the noise and caught up in the, this person's really loud out there. So clearly they must be great. But at the end of the day, is that really where your money is gonna be best spent? So this is great for giving everyone the tools to be able to select and interview the coaches. So thank you so much, Sonia. I cannot thank you enough for coming on and sharing all that you did today.
Sonia Barney (55:25.304)
Thank you so much. appreciate it, Shauna Lynn, for what you've helped me with my businesses and for letting me be here today.
Shauna Lynn Simon (55:32.194)
Well, it was my pleasure. And if you're listening to this episode, what we're saying here today is resonating with you. I hope that you will continue to tune in each week. Remember, we drop new episodes every Tuesday morning at 7 a.m. Eastern time. Find us on your favorite podcast platform, wherever you get your podcast. And while you're there, please subscribe to us and leave us a review because the reviews really do help the algorithm. They help other people to find us. Please don't make the Real Women Real Business podcast your best kept secret. And of course,
I really hope that if this is really resonating with you, the best way that you can show your support not only for this podcast, but for your fellow women entrepreneurs is to share this podcast with someone else that you know can really benefit from it. That is way that we get to spread our message and spread our love and spread our community. So thank you again, Sonia, for joining us and for all those who are listening and tuning in. Until next time, keep thriving.